The Women’s Race Within The Race

From Pam:
When we talk about events, we always mention them as a singular entity: the Western States 100 Mile, the Miwok 100k, the American River 50 Mile. But conceptually, I think we all realize they are actually two races–a men’s race and a women’s race–and at the end of these events we recognize two champions. Yet many of the race results in ultrarunning are listed with the men and women combined.

2015 Miwok 100k results

2015 Miwok 100k results. Image is a screenshot from the race’s website.

I think the combined results highlight women’s achievements when women place well in the field overall (like Rory Bosio making the top-10 overall at UTMB), but women’s results can become obscured when there is a really deep field, such as at Western States, where one would have to scroll down to 20th place to find Magda Boulet’s winning time from this year and it is nearly impossible to pick out the top-10 women unless you count them out yourself. In these instances, it feels a lot like the women’s results are buried amongst the men’s.

What do you think, ladies? Is there a better way to highlight the women’s results or do you think things are fine just the way they are?

From Liza:
I don’t know, I’ve always kind of liked the way finishers are all mixed together. I remember getting my first copy of UltraRunning Magazine and searching for my name in the list of Rocky Raccoon 100 Mile finishers. I liked seeing my overall placement. I thought the mass listing highlighted the decreased gender disparity in finishing times in our sport. And I took it as a subtly affirming message. “Hey, we’re all just crazy people running 50 and 100 miles. Male, female… if you’re a wingnut willing to run for a belt buckle, you’re on equal footing with the rest of us.”

Jennifer Pharr Davis wrote a wonderful article for The New York Times last year examining the equalizing force of distance on performance. My favorite quote from the piece is from Heather Anderson, who holds overall (for both genders) self-supported speed records on the Pacific Crest and Appalachian Trails. She says, “I believe that endurance is most likely genderless.”

Still, at least up to the 100-mile distance, the fastest men are faster than the fastest women. I guess I’m just ambivalent about whether results should emphasize men’s and women’s racing over individual performance. That speaks more to the fact that I don’t like racing than an unwillingness to champion women’s sport, though. Certainly, it seems simple enough to list the top-10 male and top-10 female performances before the overall results. That’s what race administrators Tejas Trails do for Rocky Raccoon now.

2016 Rocky Raccoon 100 Mile results

2016 Rocky Raccoon 100 Mile results. Image is a screenshot from the race’s website.

It makes it much easier to follow women’s racing. And there’s no reason ultrarunning nerds shouldn’t be able to rattle off top female runners like they can male runners. And maybe highlighting women’s performances would encourage some women to race harder–and inspire others to set higher goals for themselves. Even a just-in-it-for-the-belt-buckle-and-tall-tales runner like me would support separating male and female race results if that was the case.

From Gina:
Pam, I know exactly what you’re talking about! I hate having to scroll through lists to count positions! Some results aren’t numbered separately for men and women. Thus, the first-place woman might actually be counted officially as 25th place, for example.

I’m not really sure why most race organizers list results this way. I can let my bold and outspoken ideals point at laziness and ignorance, but I doubt those are the reasons. My guess is that when the whole sport of racing began, there were obviously no/very few women, thus, race organizers wouldn’t have the need for two listings. Thus, the listing style has never changed, even though there are many more women racing, including in some distances/events more women than men.

Personally, I’d appreciate having my gender grouping displayed in an organized fashion. Or, have one master list, and then a separate men’s list and women’s list. When viewing results, it is much easier and more meaningful to me to see where I stand amongst my female friends/competitors. With all the women’s info collated in one list, I am able to see the difference in splits, times, and more, which is super helpful and insightful for future training and racing.

To take things a step further, or to at least bring up the topic, what about race logistics and their effects on male and female finishes? Does hosting a women’s race at the same time as a men’s race change people’s interest in and support of the women’s race?

Let’s take the example of UTMB. The top male finishers always arrive to the finish line in the daylight of a Saturday afternoon in Chamonix, France. Chamonix’s streets are packed with several-thousand people cheering for those top men. The route, which traces for about a kilometer through the town’s streets and to the finish chute, is lined with people, and the finish line is jam packed eight or 10 people deep for its 150-ish-meter length. The presence and cheering of those several thousand people make it perhaps the most powerful and exciting finish line that exists for a trail/mountain race.

Hours and many male finishers later, the top female arrives. She typically finishes in the early evening hours on Saturday, what is still prime-time hours for a European tourist town. She is typically greeted by perhaps a couple-thousand people throughout Chamonix’s streets–impressive by almost any standard we have in trail racing–but still many fewer people than for the top man. By the time the third-place women arrives, she is lucky to be greeted by a couple hundred people.

I ran the Chamonix, Courmayeur, Champex (CCC) event, a UTMB sister race, in 2014 as my first 100k. I was scared to death of the race. It was an uncharted distance and me being the all-or-nothing person that I am, I chose one of the toughest 100ks in the world. At the time, it was the hardest race I’d ever run. My goals were top five, top U.S. female finisher, and to run under 16 hours so that I could qualify for the Western States lottery.

I arrived at the finish line around 1 a.m. and as top U.S. female in fifth in 15:59:13 seconds. I was on cloud nine, and so hoped to share this proud finish with cheers and clapping. Instead, I received a few welcome claps from seven to 10 people and a hug from a friend who happened to be following the race progress. (Thank you, Greg Houston!)

Gina Lucrezi - 2014 CCC 5th place

Gina Lucrezi taking fifth at the 2014 CCC. Photo courtesy of Gina Lucrezi.

I was never so happy and so bummed at the same time. I didn’t expect the same finisher’s parade as the top male or female, but I was hoping for some exciting energy as I ran through the winding streets of Chamonix and into the finishers’ arch. When you work that hard, you really hope there are people at the end to share that moment with you.

From Liza:
What do you readers think? Should male and female top-10 performances be listed before overall results? Should race results be listed separately by gender? How would that affect you? Would you want ultramarathons to stagger their starts by gender like some marathons to ensure celebration and hoopla equality at the finish line? Are there other ways that hosting a women’s trail race contemporaneously to a men’s race changes the women’s race?

Call for Comments (from Meghan)

What do you think of the questions Liza poses? Share your thoughts in the comments section.

Trail Sisters

is a group of three women, each with unique opinions, ideas, and attitudes toward all things trail and ultrarunning. Pam Smith is a mom, physician, and lover of running who lives in Oregon. Liza Howard is a mom and 100-mile specialist from Texas. Gina Lucrezi is a Colorado-based short-distance speedster exploring the realms of ultrarunning.

There are 21 comments

  1. Olga King

    I would have to agree with Liza (even though I used to like racing) that I liked scrolling through, finding y overall placing, seeing how many boys I got behind. There are plenty of ways to sort female finishers (like in Ultrasignup, press “F”). we are but a bunch of crazies running for a buckle, all of us, together. And we can’t force people hang out to greet us if the timing is wrong – how would organizers predict who finishes when to stagger them, and then how would the whole race develop with aid stations, logistics, company on the trail? I was top-10 at WS back when it wasn’t so fast, and had not a single person but an RD shake my hand, and then folks in the morning were getting an ovation. Wrong? heck no. What happened was my own desire to run for me. The rest is gravy.

  2. Kyle

    After all of the articles wanting equality and same distances for races and the belief that endurance is gender-less (which I believe is absolutely true, the men just have had more time to acquire the endurance), you want us to separate the times of men and women? If you are truly racing against men as well, why is it so absurd to be listed among the men, regardless of how far back the first female is compared to the men in front? Shouldn’t there be an inherent drive for women to compete to be the best regardless of sex? If you just want to race women, why bother racing anything but women only races? If you think to be recognized widely you need separate women only race, look at other separate gender sport. I couldn’t tell you one professional softball player, but I know plenty of baseball players. Same with basketball and soccer. If there were women in baseball, I am sure I would know who they were. Take NASCAR for example: Everyone drives essentially the same car (endurance), but when Danica Patrick finishes in 15th place, she doesn’t have a separate list she is put into. I also believe that you are taking away from the races where women win overall. For instance, in last years Black Hills 100, Mallory Richard won overall, but by separating the list I am not sure I would have known and just assumed a man won overall. Not to mention, that on a combined list, I don’t even know who second place was. If you have the same endurance as a man, and you do, race them! I am positive you ladies finish hours before me, and I am not upset when I don’t have adoring crowds cheering me on because of my middle of the pack pace. If you are asking for equality, being listed with the men is the only way to create that, otherwise you are asking for inequality.

  3. Liza

    Kyle, Do you think listing the 10 ten male and female performances like Rocky and some other ultras do before the overall results fosters inequality?

  4. Liza

    Olga, (sorry I can’t respond directly to comments from my phone while treadmilling uphill), I agree with you about the finish line crowds etc. I can’t see any way or reason to try to change that. I’ve run across the finish line through large cheering crowds once and it was amazing and surreal, but I don’t know that it was any more worthwhile or joyful than a year I ran well at Rocky and nobody at the finish line realized I was done. “20 more miles!” “No, no, I’m all done.” “Are you sure?” “Oh, yes. Very much so.” “Well, good job!” “Thanks! Is there a chair around?”

  5. Ellie G

    I would love if there was an ultra where the women started ahead of the men, either by a clear margin so a woman was almost bound to be first person home or by a graded calculation so it would be a race to the line to see whether a man or woman would be first over the line. The Vancouver Sun Run 10k (50, 000 participants) as of 2015 starts women ahead of the men so a woman is first person home and gets more exposure than she typically would. There have also been a few examples of graded staggered stat for example a half marathon (in Vienna?) where Paula Radcliffe was chased down by Haile Gebrselassie. Both are ways that women are sure to not get so lost in the masses at a finish line.

    1. Brett

      To me this is a great idea. But then I am sure you will find someone who gets insulted because women have to get a head start. Sometimes you can’t win for losing.

      I think listing the results 2 ways is best – overall, and then separated by male and female.

      Some people race for themselves, some race for adulation, some race for awards, some race by gender, some race against others in their age group – to each his or her own. There are so many different ways to do this that I don’t think you can ever make everyone completely happy.

    2. Meghan Hicks

      I’m with you, Ellie.

      As a woman, a fan of the sport in general, and someone who spends a lot of hours tracking the progress of men and women through trail races, I would love if there were a trail/ultra event or two out there where top women weren’t mixed in with the men. First, so women could more clearly see and keep track of their competition. And second, to make being a fan and following the race easier. All of the time I see the third-place man, for example, getting cheered for wildly by fans/aid station people/whomever is out on the course/at the finish line. But the third-place woman, she’s often lost in a sea of men and no one cheers her–not because they don’t care, I don’t think–but because they just don’t notice her. Sometimes, when I’m at a finish line of a race, the race doesn’t even notice when the winning woman crosses the finish, or doesn’t notice her until the absolute last second! Again, it’s not because I don’t think people care, it’s just that it’s so much harder to follow the women’s race when it’s embedded within the men’s.

      In tight races especially, knowing where your competition is can be a huge boost mentally, which has physical translations. And having fan support, that can be another boost, too. While support on the course/at the finish may seem like a trivial reason for having a women-only or a women-start-first trail race, I would argue that it’s not trivial when men or just the lead woman get extra cheering simply because of the layout of the race, while other top women don’t. While I definitely agree with the other commenters that events like these pose steep logistical challenges and probably won’t ever happen on a regular basis, I’d love to see a couple of them developed and made competitive, like what has happened in road racing.

      I occasionally cite the 2012 IAU 100k World Champs as an example of this. It was a loop course with men and women running simultaneously, as this race always is, so runners came through the finish line many times before their ultimate finish. Amy Sproston won, but she took over the lead in the last lap, so no one was expecting her. She was absolutely lost in a sea of men (men who were crossing their ultimate finish and men who were a lap or more behind her) as she ran the long road straight to the finish. When she crossed the finish, only a couple people knew she was the winner–because I saw her giant curly ponytail bobbing down the finish road and screamed to the race officials. She crossed, became a world champion, and came to a halt. There were a couple hundred people standing at the finish line but no one knew she was the winner. And not long before, the men’s champion received a grand welcome with people cheering him warmly. Do I think some of this could have been solved by better race logistics on the part of the organizers? Yep. Do I think some of this is a result of the inherent challenge of holding a women’s race simultaneous to a men’s race? Yep. And so that’s why I’m on board with the idea of a competitive women’s race held separately from a men’s race, just to remove those issues, for once. How fun!

      I would love to hear comments from women who participate in the couple women-only trail races that are out there, like the US Mountain Running Champs, national mountain running champs in other countries, and the World Mountain Running Champs–where a separate women’s race is actually held. I’d love to hear their comparisons between those races and the more traditional race set-ups in which they usually compete.

      1. Ellie G

        The IAU 100k is a great example. When I ran it in 2011(?) on a 10 x 10k looped course (before dropping out) I was first woman but then slipped into 2nd, the lead motoorbike stayed with me and I was having to run along in the race trying to explain to the Dutch motorcylcist that he should no longer be with me and should be with the women who even he had not noticed go past!

        I’m definitely not saying that in every ultra/ trail race that women should start first but it would be great for the sport overall to see it in a few races. It might mean an earlier start for the women (or later start for the men) and it might mean women might not have the ‘advantage’ of running with men, but equally I’ve had male friends express their friendly concern that if this occurred that they’d no longer be able to pace of the lead women! I’d welcome not being able to run around men – lead men have to pace themselves and I’d like to pace my own race too.

      2. alicia

        Meghan, I’ve never been super keen on the idea of staggered starts (it sounds a bit lonely!) but you make some really good points. It would be interesting to try if some races were able to make it work logistically.

      3. Amy

        At the 2012 World 100K, the motorcycle, which was with the lead woman didn’t even realize I’d passed her to move into the lead. When I passed, he didn’t go with me, but stayed with 2nd (which made it really easy for me to tell how far back she was) but also part of the reason that they might not have been expecting me. :) The finish was very special to me regardless of who was or wasn’t cheering and I’m not sure that I would have even noticed the crowds.

    3. Gina Lucrezi

      Ah!!! I love this Ellie! Thanks for your comment! When I wrote my piece for this article, I was trying to convey the fact that women usually never have the chance to finish at the opportune times that the race is structured for. You nailed this solution, IMO!

  6. Sarah Lavender Smith

    I don’t think how the results are listed matters all that much; in most cases (like on ultrasignup) you can filter them if you want to see female only. The bigger issue is lack of participation in the longer, tougher ultras (e.g. Hardrock, Georgia Death Race), so the women’s competition is not quite as exciting because chances are there are big gaps between the handful of front-running women. I was really happy by the GDR results and the fact the women bonded together and raced each other. I noticed before the race that ultrasignup’s automatic ranking listed no women in the top 75! I wrote to Maggie Guterl, only half in jest, “please go ‘chick’ some of those 75 for the rest of us!” I was thrilled to see Bethany Patterson and Maggie finish 8th & 9th pretty close to each other. But still, fewer than one-fourth of the finishers were female. I’m not sure how I feel about Ellie’s idea of having women start the race earlier for a head start so they finish closer to the lead pack of men. It might make it easier for iRF and others to cover the race, if they’re all closer together; I commend iRF for covering both the women’s and men’s races because I know it’s hard, when you have to cover different points in the race that are hours apart, with limited people on the ground to do that. In any case, thanks Trail Sisters for the column!

  7. alicia

    I feel like an Anatomy and Physiology 101 refresher article would go a long way towards advancing the dialogue on virtually all of the sex-related issues that Irunfar has addressed. Statements like “endurance is genderless” only widen the gulf between real science and what the ultrarunning community as a whole seems to believe. I would love to see an article addressing:

    -The functions and effects on running of various hormones, including testosterone and estrogens, and the typical levels of these hormones in males and females

    -The typical V02 max levels in males and females

    -The differing levels of body fat required for males and females to be healthy

    Maybe by making sure that everyone is on the same page as far as understanding how our bodies work and how sex differences can impact running ability, we can have a more productive discussion.

  8. Olga King

    Going to have to reply in general as it is to Kyle, Liza and Ellie:) In a nutshell, I agree with Brett that listing top male/female ahead of the full list sounds like an easiest and most coherent and fair plan. Starting separate times and comparing that it is done in a 10k/marathon is totally unfair – it is a known fact female winner will come may be 10-15 min behind and it is easy to arrange, while in a 50-100M race so many things go wrong on both sides, predictions are arbitrary, and to boot more often than not we are talking hours, not minutes. Speaking of inequality, there was an article just recently circulating bringing attention to the difference in ruh-ruh around “Woman with 2 kids won such and such” versus “Man with 6 kids and a VP career won whatever”. We want equality and we demand separate attention. Equal attention is what we should ask for. A woman won/placed/ran and a man won/placed/ran. In a real world of today, both genders have to take care of the kids (and in the case of this article’s writers, sometime reversibly), have careers and make choices. Just for the heck of it, since I didn’t voice it when the topic came all those bunch of previous times, I also don’t feel we need to “bring more women” to the sport, any sport. “Bring” sounds like forcing, like if they choose to raise children and not run 100 milers, they are lesser humans. In each case it is an individual decision. If she (or he) likes running (or swimming), the couple discusses it within the family, figures out how to fit it in (and if it fits in), and makes it happen. In the world of so much media, those who are interested – already know. IMHO.

  9. John K

    I think there is value in “all of the above” (start the women first, list men and women separately, list everyone together).

    As someone who regularly wins the “masters” race within a race, I am now used to that occurring without too much clapping and cheering, but I would love it if people celebrated my “win” :)

    But I guess I also worry about the situations where anyone (a “masters” runner, or a woman… or anyone) can outright win the race, and how important it is to celebrate those cases too.

    I think of Ann Trason, and how amazing it must have been for her to outright win a race. And she’s not the only woman ever to win a race outright. My trail running friend Kehr regularly measures herself against the men in her races. I’m not sure if she’s ever won one outright, but she has certainly been very high in the overall placing, so it is at least possible for her.

    Celebrate everyone who gets out there. And celebrate the truly outstanding performances too :)

  10. Kyle

    I don’t have a good answer for that situation. How about listing the finishers in alphabetical order, and each individual can sort the results however they would like?

    I don’t disagree that there is a race within a race, because it is the same way with age groups, but you don’t usually see results posted that way either. I am not upset when the 20 year old’s beat me to the finish and I don’t get cheering for being the third 30 year old to come across the line.

    Maybe this is more about recognition that women are phenomenal runners and deserve as much applause as men who win the race outright, but do you really want a handicap start? If that is the case, we better just segregate the races. If we do that, maybe we should separate by state, country, religion, diet, so on and so forth.

    Because of the considerably larger number of men, and the deep pool of fast men racing, wouldn’t it behoove women to have fast men to chase, to pass, to compete with, instead of smaller group of women?

    I know people like to win and be recognized for it, but maybe just running because you love it and because it makes you happy should be more important than adoration.

    1. Ellie G

      It’s not about adoration, it’s about recognition, and if you think I’m being picky then we need to ask that no one gets cheered at a finish line in the name of fairness.

      We are born man or woman (or totally different topic, a few somewhere in between). We have a choice over what age we choose to race at or what religion we are etc, but we do not have choice over our gender and physiologically men have the potential to always be faster than women.

      Ok, I’m logging off now to go train :)

    2. Sam

      Just wanted to point out that this is not about women getting a “handicap” start, but rather about recognition at the end of the race. For a particular race, let’s say the first place man runs a race in 10 hours and the first place woman runs a race in 12 hours but started in a women’s start two hours earlier. In the overall ranking the man would obviously place higher, but in regards to actually finishing the race it would happen at a similar time Ideally garnering the same excitement and less winners getting lost in the pack.

    3. Amy

      For the shorter trail race that I direct, I will actually be having separate male elite and female elite starts. I will see how the feedback from the runners comes back, but wanted to try it for this year. It’s not about the adulation at the finish line for the male or female winners, but to encourage a fair head-to-head race for each winner (and podium). The race course is narrow, and I don’t want the female race to be affected if they get ‘stuck’ behind guys fighting for the trail in the first climb.

      I feel that having fair head-to-head competition is one aspect that hasn’t been addressed here. Men leaders in races get a relatively unobscured trail, jockeying for space on the trails surrounded only the other male competitors, and contending for aid station support among his direct competitors. The lead women are often amid a pack of guys, having to fight for trail space among the guys (and not their direct female competition) and jockeying for aid station support among guys. This might not make a difference in longer races or races that have wider trail to start, but some races start almost immediately with the single track and the men in the race have an affect on the women’s race.

  11. ctk

    In a current global climate where murder and terrorism are rampant, malnutrition and starvation persist, and calamity knocks on the door of every class and country, the prideful concern about being cheered and praised seems thin, remote, and self-absorbed. When I finish ahead of my husband (often), I never hear him complain about having to scroll over my result to find his and then demand that he be listed in a separate list. Many many women’s ONLY races exist, particularly in triathlon or shorter distances runs, but what about men only? Danskin’s Mens triathlon? Nope. And when my husband wears his running shorts, which are even a little longer than mine, do we have to qualify that they are “short” shorts when we never hear of women wearing short shorts? Further, he often finds himself in the women’s section to find fashionable garb that fits his small frame (stomaching funny looks from both genders), as men’s fashion seems to be left in the dust compared to women’s, especially in athletics. But he admits to me that his concern is really ridiculous given the wonderful blessing in which he lives, with plenty of resources and love and family in his life. Like Olga wisely states, the rest is gravy. If we women want more of a male experience when merely crossing a finish line (or whatever “experience” you might call it), then perhaps we also need to identify where men get left out of our worlds and close those gaps. Nevertheless, life is awesome, we are all simply humans, and larger and deeper concerns seem to exist than finish experiences, gender only races, and fashion appeal/fit. Finally, some of the so-called races aren’t even races, but simply runs (Bighorn, Hardrock, etc.)

    1. Lisa

      Well, if you want to get nitpicky, I would think that in a world where the atrocities you cite are running rampant and people are starving, we’re terribly self-absorbed, heinous creatures for wasting our time and money on something so trivial as running.

      I think it’s possible to have this conversation without insulting the aspirations and priorities of others. We runners already need to justify to our friends and loved ones (if not our bosses) why we spend so much energy running and racing. We shouldn’t need to justify it to each other – at least, not in response to such strident tones.

  12. Marije

    Before I ran, I fenced sabre. This was in a time when there were no women’s competitions in my country. I trained and competed with the guys. I am pretty sure I would never have been able to progress as fast and as far as I did if I only had had women to compete with. In fact, I feel the level dropped once there were separate competitions and a national championship, because that attracted all the women that never felt they had the chance to place high enough before (or were intimidated by the men – sabre fencers are a rowdy bunch). I suppose I have never felt the need for validation in the form of numbers, that probably helped me. I just liked measuring myself against the best fencers around, and they were generally not female – just because there were so few of them. The same line of argument applies to running, in my opinion.

  13. Markus

    Logistically it should be very easy to show all results in female/men categories.
    We love to see our sport as genderless, the fact is that there are 2 genders with different physiques and social economics.

    I don’t think ultrarunning can change how we see genders on our own but showing the results in f/m categories should be a no brainer.

  14. Angela

    I love trailrunning events because they are more natural and adventurous than road events, with far less people! I could see starting the pro females at a different time, but that may constitute a separate start time for only 5-10 ladies for most (not all, of course) events. Also, in my opinion, Ultrarunning magazine gives the proper amount of attention to female runners by coloring those names red. This is sufficient. No need for seperate lists, really. As a mid-packer, I don’t mind being blended with the men. I chat with men and women during the event and I like to see how those people finished. Plan and simple.

    Sports are not genderless. There are clear advantages for the men. Not their fault, so why minimize that? They should be celebrated, too! If a man is first in the race, then so be it! Ladies can catch the dudes, at times, and that rocks, too! One more midpacker comment; as a lady runner, I can rattle off more ultra/trail female elite names, then men. I like the brands the ladies choose, I read the ladies runner blogs. And, sometimes I pick Altras in pink, but I run with men and women and enjoy the company just the same.

  15. Jeff

    On balance, I will say I love that men and women of all abilities run and compete together. In cycling, men and women race separately, and different categories race separately within genders as well.

    Yes, many women can compete at an elite level (um, I think Pam was top 10 at WS100 one year :))so you also want to make sure they get proper recognition for both gender and overall performance.

    What if you started a 100 mile race Friday evening (e.g. 9pm)? Everyone would need to run at night, elite men would finish in the late morning/early afternoon and the elite women a bit later in the afternoon/early evening?

    1. Liza

      It’s a good idea — though as a wildly sleep-deprived person, the thought of staying up all night to start a race makes me frown.

      1. Jeff

        Yes, but lots of European races start at 10 or 11pm Friday night …. not my favorite thing but as a non-elite I will be running at night anyway :)

  16. Bernadette Benson

    I resonate with Alicia’s comments on understanding gender differences in sport and Ellie’s comments, as will. I agree with the IAAF stance that men and women are in separate events, merely held at the same time for convenience when the distances are so long. The “overall” ranking muddies the waters, as I feel they are two separate events. Great discussion, guys.

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